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26 comments

  • elsueco

    elsueco 6 years, 6 months ago

    They conveniently left out the part about if you get your children vaccinated, the CIA will come and kill the kids' grandpa, then blow up a helicopter in your front yard while the army bulldozes your home a few months later.

    http://gentlemint.com/tack/237166/

    Not that Jenny McCarthy warned about that. I'm just saying it happens.

    Reply

  • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

    I realize that it is easy to make light of subjects when people believe they know everything because they heard it from tv, or the Internet. The problem lies in the fact that most people do not take the time to educate themselves to view points other then what they are convinced is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I am not a conspiracy vaccination is the devil, nor am I a 'it must be true because a dr said so' person. Think about how much money pharmaceutical co put into lobbying, and getting dr to sell the drug. Think of how much debt a dr has. Lastly, think about the crazy commercials you watch and listen to and the 1 min cover our butts legal crap read by a speed reader at the end of a commercial. Just some food for thought.
    http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-is-new/news/news/docs/20131219_study_on_corruption_in_the_healthcare_sector_en.pdf
    http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/30-scientific-studies-showing-the-link-between-vaccines-and-autism/
    http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/health-concerns/vaccines/vaccine-faqs

    Reply

    • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

      Think about all the lives that have been saved because of vaccinations. Even if vaccinations did cause autism, which they do not, there is no link... even if they did cause autism at the current rate of autism, the rate is so low it would be stupid to not have your kids vaccinated.

      Reply

      • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

        Ergo, did you read anything that I put there? Click on the links and read. Educate yourself before you jump on the all med dr and what they say is gosple and everybody else is idiots bandwagon. Also, I didn't say anything about autism, I have not claimed that that is the only problem. Yes, that is the usual counter arguement but I would rather you actually read what I put up there because there is good info there.
        Use basic debating skills.

        Reply

        • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

          I read through a few of the abstracts for the cited research, and none of them come to the specific conclusion that autism was linked to vaccines.

          Reply

        • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

          I invite you to check out some other resources from groups that are actively addressing autism. They agree that vaccines are not the issue:

          http://www.autismsciencefoundation.org/autismandvaccines.html

          Reply

          • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

            I have read both sides, that is not the issue. My issue is that people blindly believe what is being sold to them. As I mentioned before. Why do they put warning labels, and liability speed reader warnings about side affects on all drugs except vaccines? Any critically thinking person has to admit that that is rather odd. How are vaccines the only perfect drug? Why are doctors and pharmaceutical companies above being held liable for anything that may happen to a receiver of a vaccine? Really? How is that acceptable? Have you read the other studies linking unscrupulous methods of studies?

            Reply

            • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

              One other thing I urge you to really consider. Drugs are not the same for every person. Some people are allergic to drugs and can't take them. Other drugs have limited effectiveness on some people, and better and n others. Why then are vaccines 'good' and 'without adverse effect' for each and every person? Again, any person with reason would understand that that is impossible.

              Reply

              • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

                I agree that there can be side effects from vaccines, but the known side effects do not include autism, which is the typical claim against vaccines at this point.

                Reply

            • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

              The expected side effects of vaccines is not hidden, it is easily available:

              http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/side-effects.htm

              Reply

              • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

                I get that ergo, I have even given you cdc info on the effects of mercury and aluminum on the body. Do me a favor, since I am too lazy to copy and paste a page worth of cover ups and Google fda cover ups. All about how they are not truthful. I realize that I put up an autism link, I shouldn't have, because now you are transfixed on that alone and have not really paid much attention to the other things I have mentioned.

                Reply

    • glen

      glen 6 years, 6 months ago

      Robochess, I couldn't agree more. You make excellent points about taking education into your own hands. Knowledge is power.

      I think the problem is where we get our education. Should it be the government? Should it be independent parties? Who's qualified? Who isn't? I don't have these answers, but it's what I immediately think of when I read, well, anything newsworthy these days.

      An aside: I checked out some of the above links. The Health Impact News site is owned by the guy who runs http://tropicaltraditions.com. I'm not saying that's wrong, but something to think about.

      Ok, I'll take off my tin foil hat now and enjoy the snow :)

      Reply

      • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

        Yes, glen, that is a weird side business, not one I have cared enough to look into. I also am not sure that either side is gospel. However, if you keep up on news, you will see that there is info coming out on how the FDA has covered up and not used certain studies because it didn't confirm what they wanted. Also, one of the studies I put up also shows how the pharmaceutical and medical community place more interest in making money, then providing detail and balanced studies on vaccines, and the affects on people, especially children. Mercury? Now Aluminum? These are known neural degenerative ingredients in vaccines. Plus, it doesn't really matter who posts certain information, as long as the information is validated studies. maybe studies that have been buried? Who knows. But I am sure that we can all agree that the government is usually not the best place for truthful information.
        Here is a thought to think....
        Have you ever watched tv, or listened to the radio and the advertisement was for a drug? Well, at the end of the drug ad they have a minute long speed reader reading legal mumbo jumbo to cover the collective legal butts of the pharmaceutical and medical providers. Right? Then ask yourself this, why do vaccines not have this? Are vaccines really the only safe drug on the market? Even now, within the last 2 months there are risks associated with ibuprofen, and we all know that tylenol is a known liver destroyer, and they have been on the market forever.
        I am not anti-vaccine, nor am I anti-doctor. What I am is pro-thought. Trying to get people to think outside of their comfort zone.

        Reply

  • glen

    glen 6 years, 6 months ago

    I love the civil debate on here. You all are incredible, and the community we have here is truly special.

    It's amazing to me that we can discuss important topics and have differing opinions, but at the end of the day can agree to disagree and go for virtual beers.

    Reply

  • Titanheart

    Titanheart 6 years, 6 months ago

    As I see it the problem we are really facing is that vaccines have been so successful that people no longer understand exactly what it is they have done for us. It is easy for someone who has never seen measles to view some tiny amount of aluminum or what have you in the vaccine as more of a threat.

    So lets consider a few arguments raised in the comments here.

    1. Big Pharma would make more money if everyone were sick than if everyone were vaccinated. Treating measles is FAR more profitable than the tiny little shot that eliminates it.

    2. Doctors make money off of sick people. So they have little stake in vaccines from a monetary standpoint. So no real reason to lie there.

    3. Of the three links Robo gave, two are owned and operated by people who profit directly from the anti-vaccine group, and one is only loosely related, having to do instead with medical corruption (which as in any industry where money is made corruption should be expected). As such the two cannot really be viewed as reliable sources of information partially because the third article (on corruption) would apply equally to the anti-vaccine groups as it would to the pro-vaccine groups.

    4. The lack of disclaimer at the end of vaccine commercials. Well to be honest I have never seen a commercial for a vaccine. You just go to the doctor and get vaccinated, and from then on you don't die horribly. Even so, I imagine there is no disclaimer because the company who made said commercial is in no danger of being sued, thus they would need no disclaimer. The only way they would not be in danger of being sued is if it does what it claims on the tin. As we do not all have measles, or small pox, it can be logically surmised that vaccines do in fact do what they claim.

    5. Aluminum or what have you in the vaccine leading to some sort of health problem. You take in more aluminum through your food than you will ever get in vaccines or deodorant. It is the most prominent mineral in the earths crust, you breathe it in when you walk outside and you get it all over your feet every time you are not wearing shoes. The truth is one would need to consume in excess of 40mg per kg of body weight per day in order to have minor toxicity. Even then excessive exposure can be treated effectively and safely. You would effectively take in more aluminum from eating a vegetable then you would from being injected with a vaccine.

    I could go on I spose, or make an impassioned plea on behalf of the many children who cannot be vaccinated and who's lives are put in serious danger by the anti-vaccine crowd, but I'm not going to bother. Rather I'm going to simply state that I believe that even if vaccines did cause some sort of negative health effect, which I cannot find any actual tangible current claims against them, I believe vaccines are worth any risks.

    Reply

    • egro 6 years, 6 months ago

      Well said, especially your final conclusion:

      "Rather I'm going to simply state that I believe that even if vaccines did cause some sort of negative health effect, which I cannot find any actual tangible current claims against them, I believe vaccines are worth any risks. "

      Reply

    • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

      Titan you bring up some good points. I will have to come back when I have more time, but I'll leave with this for now. You flippantly brush aside the links I put down because they are associated with antivac groups. Which tells me that you didn't actually go through the article and look at where those bullet points came from. They came from different reputable medical associated studies and periodicals.before you brush things aside, you should actually read it.

      Reply

      • Titanheart

        Titanheart 6 years, 6 months ago

        Alright first let me say that we really need some sort of discussion forum. Gentlemen like us are inevitably going to want to discuss various things. Second, I deeply apologize if I came across as flippant or in any way disrespectful. I joined the discussion because I love discussion and through various sharing and comments have grown fond of each of those who have commented here, thus I was eager to discuss a subject that fascinates me with a few gents I respect.

        That said, allow me to expound on my previous comments so you can understand where I am coming from. Robo you linked 3 articles, and I understand how you may think I disregarded them, so let me respond to them directly.

        The first article you linked was about corruption in the medical industry. This I do not argue as evidence is abundant practically everywhere you look. However the report points out that it extends to the entire industry, which includes the authors of the two other articles you linked. That is important to remember.

        The second article is interesting. The Author, Lisa Goes published it as a Facebook note in 2011, and in it they take supposed portions of 30 studies that support their belief that vaccines cause autism. The initial problem here is that cherry picking favorable results from a scientific study absolutely invalidates the study itself, as you are no longer looking at all the information. Not to mention that they do not once link to any of the actual studies to prove they haven't falsified the information themselves. The second problem I have here is that this article is old information from old studies. The vast weight of evidence concurs that the articles author is flat out wrong. Third, statements like this one included throughout the article:

        “Parents want to know if their child can develop autism from their vaccines. If they believe that the answer is yes, and the risk of brain injury from vaccination is higher than their risk from a disease, it is their right to decline vaccination for themselves and their children with out coercion.

        Patients MUST be able to make their own informed vaccine decisions, because often, they know more about potential vaccine risks that even top public health officials do.”

        The author is stating that people have a right to an informed decision and who could argue? However they then say that patients are smarter than their doctors. So how are they going to be truly informed if they are discounting the opinions of the people who have spent their lives studying the subject?

        Reply

        • Titanheart

          Titanheart 6 years, 6 months ago

          (continued)

          Another issue I have with this article is the site it is posted on. If you spend a little time on the site you will find an overwhelming number of articles that talk about the benefits of coconut oil. Now I'm sure nothing is wrong with a little coconut oil, but we are talking most of the “scientific” articles are all about how awesome it is. The sites owner also happens to run a coconut oil importing business. Coincidence? No actually this site is exactly the type of corruption that the first article you linked spoke of. The guy rehashes 4 year old articles from other sources and then uses it to peddle his goods.

          Lastly let me make a comment about the actual author of this article. In a Facebook post on February 27 she refers to diseases like Measles as “routine childhood illness.” Measles assaults the tissue in your lungs and then your immune system itself. If it doesn't kill you outright, you are left at the mercy of other “routine” childhood illnesses like pneumonia, which is lovely to see in a little kid. Even if you survive all of that, there is a 90% chance you will pass it on to everyone around you. A routine childhood illness that is responsible for 2.6 million deaths per year. And that is just measles.

          Now moving forward!

          The last article you linked is all about the aluminum. I'm going try to go through bit by bit. Let me point out however that Dr. Bob Sears the articles author, uses every chance he can to peddle his book on the subject. The guy is making money off of the situation so he should be considered immediately suspect. He begins by loosely quoting articles from places like the FDA about how much aluminum is safe, however he ignores parts of his own quotes in that the numbers he is using are for people with compromised kidneys. In normal people the numbers are entirely different. In fact as you continue through the article you find that over and over he manipulates the information in his own article ignoring the fact that he is defeating his own “science”.

          Later in the article he does refer to impaired kidney function again, however by this point all of his math is incredibly flawed. At this point in the article I feel like my intelligence has been so insulted that I really need a break, so I did a little digging about the author and found some sad news. Turns out that he is another person who considers measles and other diseases we vaccinate against as just routine illness that is nothing to be feared. Did you know tetanus can cause you to convulse so violently that you will break your own bones? Sounds like fun for your kids right? Routine illness's are just so cute aren't they?

          A quick search on Google turns up myriad articles about Dr. Bob and how his book on vaccines has been completely debunked.

          Reply

          • Titanheart

            Titanheart 6 years, 6 months ago

            (continued again... we really need a discussion forum up in here am I right?)

            So let me stop there.

            At the end of the day, vaccines save millions of lives. No causal link has been found that presents ANY verifiable evidence to support the anti-vaccine people. We do know however that should the trend continue, millions more will die horribly of completely preventable diseases. Even if a link were found, even if there was say a 50% chance that my kid would end up with autism or some other false claim that these people make, I would still vaccinate them. If these people had any real interest in doing the right thing, then they would fight for further research, while at the same time encouraging people to continue vaccinating until such proof is found. Thus fighting the beast we know instead of risking our children, and billions of others for fear of the beast we cannot even prove exists. What these people are advocating is tossing your children into a pit of starving wolves, for fear that they may encounter bigfoot.

            Reply

            • Robochess 6 years, 6 months ago

              I am sorry, I have read your comments and most of them make a lot of sense. I can see your points, and why you are saying what you are. I am actually in the middle of a butt load of tests and studying for my first set of 4 boards. This first set is all the sciences that I have been studying over the last couple of years and I am starting to stress a bit. Please forgive the lack of interjection. I shall return. And thanks.

              Reply

              • Titanheart

                Titanheart 6 years, 6 months ago

                Hey no worries buddy! Studies come first! Take a deep breath and don't stress. Put on some Jimmy Buffet music and sip a cold beer. You got this!

                Reply

            • Robochess 6 years, 5 months ago

              I agree there needs to be research, much much more. I am sure you believe that I am anti vaccine, but I am not. I am anti ignorance. I have actually vaccinated my children, just on my time, not somebody that spends 2 minutes not listening to me before they prescribe a drug or give a shot to.ask yourself this, how are vaccines ok for everybody? But every other medication on the planet is not ok for everybody. Doesn't that seem odd to you in the least?
              A discussion forum would be good.

              Reply

          • Robochess 6 years, 5 months ago

            Measles really only kills people in unsanitary third world countries. There are very few deaths linked to measles in industrialized nations. There are around 10 in the US in the last 14 or so years. Now, it is hard to get accurate numbers on death associated to vaccines because the government is pro vaccine and the manufacturers are not liable for death or injury. There is a vaccine court, with around 8k illnesses attributed to vaccine and about 1/9 of those have been dismissed, the rest have had payouts. Does this prove anything?
            At worst tetanus kill 500 people a year. Now, does that suck? Yes. Did it suck to die that way? I am positive it did. But that is not many people. Some associations between vaccines? Yes, all vaccine, no. Ask yourself why malpractice is so expensive? Is it because doctors don't hurt people? No, it is because without a doubt they do.

            Reply

        • Robochess 6 years, 5 months ago

          You have some good pts here. I have no problems with the idea that natural health has just as much corruption as mainstream med. As far as parents being smarter then dr's, I get it. Dr's have spent years studying. And hundreds of thousands of dollars. Which they need to make back. And they want to make back more so that they can have the life they dreamed of, when they thought of becoming a dr. I am sure you have heard the stories of people going to the dr only to have them throw a drug at it, without spending more then a couple of minutes figuring out what was wrong with you. Only to have the meds either, not work, or the side affects are worse then the illness. Even now, there are studies coming out about how Tylenol doesn't work as a pain killer on kids, and we have been giving it to kids for what? 40 years? As for cherry picking, you are 100% correct. I propose to you that the fda does the same. There is a scary thought, right?

          Reply